Sparing the Rod
I don’t know about you, but I’m a little tired of the notion that our children are frail and highly sensitive flowers.
We’re so concerned about hurting their little feelings and damaging their fragile psyches and being judged by other parents for our discipline techniques that we’re raising an entire generation of kids that have little to no respect for their elders and don’t know what it means to be polite or to serve others.
Of course there are exceptions. Of course. But I’ve been raising kids now for eight years and I’ve seen children of all ages come through my front door. It’s sad that when one says, “Thank you,” or can look me in the eye when I speak to her, I am pleasantly surprised. I remember when that kind of thing was a matter of course.
I’m not alone in my thoughts, either. In a recent MSNBC poll, 82 percent of more than 10,000 people polled said that today’s kids are more self-centered than those of past generations.
I wrote about why I think my generation of parents is almost entirely responsible for the rudeness in this week’s newspaper edition of Suburban Turmoil. The full text of the column is below…
To Spank or Not to Spank…
In just under two hours, 3-year-old Harry Morrison cut a path of destruction through our house that would be recalled in tones of awe and disgust for years to come.
The kid belonged to old friends of my husband who were in town for a visit. As soon as they arrived, Harry made a beeline for my daughter’s room. Within minutes, he’d found a bottle of hand sanitizer, unscrewed the top and dumped the whole thing on the floor.
By the time I had cleaned up the mess and returned to the kitchen, Harry was sitting on the floor, inhaling the pungent bouquet from a bottle of floor cleaner like a seasoned sommelier. Shrieking, I ran over and jerked the bottle out of his hands. At that moment, his mother ambled casually into the kitchen.
“Harry got into the Lysol,” I gasped. She laughed.
“Oh, he’s always into something,” she said, shaking her head. “Harry, what did we learn about keeping our hands to ourselves?”
After uttering those words of wisdom, she returned to the den. I stared after her in befuddlement and then looked over at Harry, who stuck out his tongue at me, an impish gleam in his eye.
I spent the next half-hour trying to get dinner on the table and keep Harry out of trouble at the same time. When the adults were finally seated, I noticed an unnatural silence had settled over the house. I jumped up from my seat.
“Harry?” I shouted. “HARRY!” He definitely wasn’t downstairs.
I leapt up our steps two at a time, and that’s where I found him and my then 2-year-old daughter Punky, gleefully dipping their hands into a toilet and flinging water around the bathroom.
“What the…” I yelped, scooping up Punky. “Harry’s playing in the toilet!” I bellowed down the stairs. “Someone come up here and get him, please!” I took Punky to our bathroom and gave her a quick spongebath.
“Punky, you know better than to play in the toilet!” I said. “Why did you do that?”
“Because Harry do’d it,” she replied.
“Boys will be boys,” his father laughed when I finally returned to the table. I gave him a dark look and sat down, only to jump up again at the sound of Punky crying after Harry broke one of her toys, and again when I heard the unmistakable sound of books being ripped from the playroom shelves. Harry’s parents remained seated, chatting away as though their son didn’t exist.
“Never again,” I said when we finally closed the front door on our guests that night. I turned and looked at my husband. “Never. Again.”
And as I wiped the sweat from my brow, an unthinkable idea wormed its way into my brain. What Harry needed… was… a good… spanking.
What Harry needed was a good spanking!
I didn’t speak these words aloud, but I found myself clapping my hand over my mouth just the same, as though expecting someone from the Department of Children’s Services to ring my doorbell in response.
I am, after all, one of an entire generation of parents that has been told spanking is wrong. Spanking is practically child abuse. Although many of us were spanked ourselves, we are mightily affronted now when a parent dares to place a hand against her child’s backside. We are too educated to resort to that sort of thing, too rational, too nice.
“Spanking teaches your child to fear you,” one popular health Web site warns. “Spanking teaches your child that when he makes mistakes, you’ll punish him rather than give sympathetic guidance.”
I think back to when I was a kid and fearing our moms and dads was normal. When I was Harry’s age, fear of my parents’ wrath was the only thing that kept me from running wild through the parking lot or stealing candy at the grocery. Later, that fear convinced me not even to attempt sneaking out of my house. I had a good relationship with my parents, but a little fear of their consequences went a long, long way. Had they given me the “sympathetic guidance” I’m encouraged to offer my own children today, I think I would have laughed at them.
I’m not convinced spanking is the answer. But what we’re doing now clearly isn’t working either. We are so consumed with our children’s feelings and sensitivities that too many of us are ending up with little Harries running wild, while we smile indulgently to hide our mortification.
And I’ve seen enough to know that those little Harries turn into teenagers like the trendily dressed ones who stood in line behind my daughter and me at Forever 21 last week. After they dropped the F-bomb (among other choice expletives) a good half-dozen times, I turned around, pointed out my 5-year-old standing just a few feet away, and politely asked them to tone down their language.
“Kiss my ass,” one of the girls replied. Their mom stood silently beside them.
I bit my lip. My face burned. Once again, visions of a spanking came to my head.
Only this time, I would deliver it. And I couldn’t decide who would end up feeling the sting of my hand — the girl…
Or her mother.
>It scares me sometimes because I’m afraid not everyone is raising their kids to be as respectable as I am raising mine. I’m afraid of who her peers are/will be.
>I agree with Lindsay 100%. Raising children is not an exact science, but parents should at least teach the basics – Yes Ma’am, No Sir, please and thank you. There is a growing lack of caring and consideration in general for others, and it is sad.
>ITA Lindsay!! My kids have manners and for the most part respect for their elders. They do have their slip ups but they are corrected. They are also being raised to be realistic. Life is not all rainbows and butterflies. Sometimes life sucks.
>Just posted my thoughts over there. I’m with you, but a little scared by some of the other commenters, who seem all too ready to beat the shit out of their kids. Also, “seen but not heard?” Yikes. There’s a middle ground.
>I agree. I’ve seen it a lot, and it’s so frustrating. BTW–for some reason, I’m no longer allowed to view or post comments to City Paper, (is that odd???) so I couldn’t leave you a comment there.
>I absolutely hear you on this one. So my question is what to do if the little monster is your sister’s child?I was horrified when they came last summer and kid proceeded to get in living room candy dish and smear chocolate all over my living room white carpets and the molding in the dining room. The wrapper were everywhere. This was after she has pulled out every bin and dumped it in the play room. Every bin. Even shelves/furniture was pulled over. my daughter told on her and my sister just ignored her.Five minutes later, during dinner, same eery silence and I realized she was missing and she was near the backyard shed where we keep poisons. Both Mom and Dad did nothing to watch her.Didn’t bother to clean up playroom (250 sq. foot room and you couldn’t see the carpet by the end).I wrote about in length on my blog. Oh my was my sister pissed when she read it. It seems she’s in denial. She tried to blame the playroom on my kids. Yes, my nine year old always knocks down all the toys I made her spend the previous two days cleaning for the visit. Oh, and apparently it was “my fault” for leaving my cut crystal candy dish in my living room at her two year olds level. It’s my opinion her daughter is lucky not to have been seriously cut pulling such a heavy dish off a shelf over two feet higher then her. Silly me, I had no expectation that my formal living room was open for toddler since we were having an informal BBQ in the backyard. Some peole really do push their parental responsibilities on others.Sigh.She’s not alone though. It is so rare when I hear kids use manners. When I work in the classroom of my children though? Oh my goodness do I correct them. Someone has to…
>The parents don’t use manners either. Children are raised by example yet these children are not seeing any of the basic manners that were taught years ago.
>For some reason I’m not allowed to view or post comments at the city paper, I’m not banned am I? I have spanked my children before and I’m not proud of it. Honestly though I felt like it was warented at the time. Most of the time I like natural consequences play with your food at dinner and drop it on the floor, fine you don’t get to eat. Don’t like what I make don’t eat they aren’t going to starve. I use time outs at home if they fight and take away privaliage or toys if they act out in public. We have behavior and chore charts to reward good behavior. I try to be fair and present. It really bothers me when people don’t discipline (which means to teach not punish) their children in how to act at other people’s houses or in public. Generally, I handle these kids with advoidance by not letting my kids play with them. (Yes I have stopped hanging out with people b/c of their poorly behaved children) If that doesn’t work I will say hey we don’t hit or whatever the offence was. What do you do?
>I was raised in the age when corporal punishment (aka, spanking) was pretty common, and even teachers — back when they actually TAUGHT — could control their classrooms with a look, a word, and occasionally, a yardstick.I didn’t grow up to be a serial killer, abuser, or terrorist. I understood manners, civility, boundaries and courtesy. And in my day, not a single school shooting ever hit the news. ‘cuz nothing like them EVER HAPPENED.But run God and discipline out of the classroom and out of the family room…and we’ve had Columbine and a wealth of copycats, since.I’ve heard plenty of arguments in favor of “sparing the rod”; and I reckon that most of them are debunked crap, by a generation of self-centered kids who respect no one, not even themselves.As Lindsay says, there are always exceptions to every rule. But using history as a measure, I believe history proves that trying to overcoddle has, once again, had unintended and unimagined consequences for a generation of kids, and adults.Not everyone will agree with me here; I don’t care. Facts speak for themselves.
>Like others, I can’t comment or view over there even though I’m logged in…Anyway, before we had kids I figured I’d be okay with spanking – not pro-spanking, but not really against it either. I was only spanked a couple of times as a kid, and it was more embarrassing than anything else.But someone pointed out to me that if you spank your kids, it’s awfully hypocritical to tell them never to hit or slap someone else. So I just ruled it out. But they’d better have good manners or we find other ways to make them miserable. *laugh*
>Sorry guys. The City Paper site’s all messed up. It wasn’t even working this afternoon. Hopefully tomorrow it’ll be fixed. What bothers me is that EVERYTHING is out of the question, not just spanking. We can’t sell our kids to the gypsies anymore or send them to The Farm. It’ll damage them psychologically. My son is a holy terror and I speak to him very sternly in public to get him to behave. I don’t shout, but I speak very sternly. And people glare at me or raise their eyebrows! Like how dare I speak sternly to my two-year-old? UGH.
>While in college I was a Nanny to three great kids who eventually discovered that I was boss. The baby is now 15 years old and a few months ago I shared our exciting news with her…expecting our first child this Summer…and she immediately announced that she will be wrapping “her” wooden spoon in a big blue ribbon for him!I’m proud to say that at 15 years old…she’s an awesome young lady!!
>Lindsey, “The Wooden Spoon” was used when necessary in our home when our two children were growing up. We now have four rather well-behaved grandsons ages between two and seven years old. They understand the house rules when we are taking care of them or they are visiting us. Rule number one is obey us when we ask them to do or not do something. Rule number two is to expect “The Wooden Spoon” to come out when they do not obey. We rarely have to use enforcement anymore!
>Oh, not the dreaded Wooden Spoon. My mom used it, too. Or them, since several were broken in her service.
>It’s absolutely ridiculous how spoiled and disrespectful some children are! I understand that all kids are different…and one type of discipline that works for one kid may not work for another. But the point is to ACTUALLY DISCIPLINE the child. Kids need boundaries and need to understand that there ARE consequences for their actions. Spoiled kids grow up t be spoiled adults…and when that happens…society goes even MORE down the drain than it already is. I consider myself a “mean mom” and I’m SO proud of it! I spank my girls when needed and they know how to handle themselves in public. They know I will not let them act up and get away with it. I wish more people would get on board with that type of thinking rather than being concerned with their kid screaming “abuse” and CPS coming to take them away.My opinion is: people who fail to discipline their kids are the ones who should have the kids taken away….not the ones who care enough to want to raise their children right.Anne
>Oh…and we use a “naughty spoon” too. It’s a wooden spoon. It rarely actually gets used…but they know I WILL use it if I need to. That’s enough for them!
>Thanks for going out on a limb on this one, being bold, and making us think. A great read that I’m 1/2 way into is Sheperding a Child’s Heart by Tripp. Great insight on getting to the heart of the matter, rather than trying to change the behavior alone. Also, wanted to say kuddos for a great BlogHer BackTalk Episode. Sent you a shoutout on the blog tonight. Thanks again for highlighting us!
>My parents never used any implement, but it only took one or two bare hand spankings before the only thing my father had to do was take off his watch, and I straightened up right away. I don’t remember him ever having to actually spank me again. There’s nothing wrong with fearing consequences from your parents. It isn’t the same thing as fearing your parents. I knew my parents loved me, and I knew that punishment wasn’t for their benefit but mine. I guess some kids aren’t so lucky.For all the choir out there in the comments, there is a parenting voice of reason at http://www.rosemond.com. He is a syndicated columnist, but the Tennessean stopped carrying him — he’s not really politically correct these days, given his call to return to child rearing of the 50s. I swear by his books (except for the Christianity and anti-homosexuality, the former I tolerate fine but the latter I believe is horribly misguided). I must have re-read his Making the Terrible Twos Terrific book 10 times. It is a must-have manual.
>Thanks, Jen, and thanks for letting us use that video. I WISH it had shown more of the boys, but I wasn’t the editor… The whole spanking issue is a tricky one. I’m not necessarily advocating it. I think it takes a very special person to do it right and effectively, and I think it only works on young children who are willful and are at an age at which they can’t quite discern right from wrong. I also know that, as a small child (say, 3-6 years old), it worked on me. The fear of the spanking generally kept me in line.I say this because I recently read all these “facts” about how awful spanking is for children and I couldn’t help but think, ‘Bulls#@t! I WAS a child and I remember it, and I experienced none of these negative outcomes!’ Except for some “fear of the parent” and why on earth is a little fear of the parent a bad thing in the context of a healthy, loving relationship? I can’t imagine all that I would have gotten into if I hadn’t feared my parents!Now, I’m totally down with parents who are opposed to spanking. But I want it to be okay again for parents to call OUT their kids for their misbehavior and be stern with them without being looked at funny by everyone else.Does that make sense? I’ve had a martini, so it may not. 😉
>(I created an account at the City Paper, but for some reason, it’s telling me I can’t leave a comment.)I remember the parent fear. It kept me out of a lot of trouble and it rarely involved a spanking. My dad could just LOOK at me and I’d start bawling.Rockboy got his fair share of swats along with my consistent expectation that he would mind his manners when out – and for the most part, he always did.I think it’s a lack of discipline, but also a lack of expectations on the part of the parent(s). I can say that when kids came into our home, they behaved whether their parents were there or not – not because I made a hobby of spanking other people’s children, but because they knew what my expectation was for their behavior while they were here.
>Ahh…the old debate. I’ve spanked a few times, and I found that it didn’t work as well as ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good behavior. In public, though, I am stern, like you, especially when it comes to manners and safety. I do think “my generation” (I’m 42) really struggles with how to discipline. I think those of use who send our kids to daycare struggle more, because we don’t want the few hours a day we spend with our kids to be filled with conflict. I became much better at teaching good behavior when I became a full time stay at home mom.For any parenting book addicts out there, check out the Kazdin method. It’s step by step behaviorism. As many of you have noted, improving our children’s behavior is much more about changing our OWN behavior. Which is the hardest change of all!
>Ah, the generation of trophy children and pets. I would like to beat their parents until they get it.
>I’m 49 and grew up getting a “swat” when I deserved it. I raised my 18 yr old son the same way. I also taught him good manners (which is severely lacking in 80% of the kids I see in the cafeteria every day).I hate to disagree with Kathy N. but daycare or not – and my son went 5 days a week – bad behavior is bad behavior and if it happened in my house it was dealt with. We wouldn’t have survived if we viewed home as the Happy Place and avoided discipline because we didn’t want to spoil our time together. Luckily his daycare/pre-school expected the same behavior we did at home.
>I am with you on all of this. I am a “wooden spoon survivor” and I am not living a life of torment because of it! I really feel I would be doing my children a great disservice if I did not discipline them and teach them self control. I want them to be clear on that before the teenage years, self control will come in pretty handy when they may be offered alcohol or drugs. That said, I am not a wild woman who beats children. We have a set of rules with other consequences (early bed, time out, no TV/Ipod etc…), spanking is a last resort and not used often. I did swat my 4YO recently, he kept running into the road. I figured me spanking his bum would hurt alot less than getting hit by a car. He got the point and did not continue.
>””The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt forauthority, they show disrespect to their elders…. They no longerrise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross theirlegs, and are tyrants over their teachers.”- Socrates (469-399 B.C.)
>Hi there, I’ve also watched in horror the things parents let their kids get away with. Just the other day, a friend’s child who had never been to my house before proceeded to head on upstairs and flush the toilet multiple times while my kids were napping. Her mom made a half-hearted attempt to tell her to come back down, but mostly made jokes about the girl making herself at home. My husband and I have agreed that emergency spanking is ok if one of the kids is in immediate danger. But I’m shocked that parents don’t even bother to do all the little things that come before spanking, like saying no (and meaning it), time outs, and taking things away. And of course, yelling. They Don’t. Even. Try. to keep their kids under control. Now my kids have meltdowns in public and fail to listen all the time, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to give up and let them run the show.I’ve also met kids who are just plain rude, and will complain about not liking the snacks I offer or being bored right in front of their parents–who regularly ask me to watch their kids for free. If I had done that as a kid, I would have gotten an immediate lecture about not being impolite to ppl who were helping my parents out. Sorry for the book, but you hit a nerve. My kids are 1 and 2 and I want them to be nice 5, 6, and 20 year olds one day. I’d rather have other parents call me mean than apathetic.
>Amen! Everyone’s so concerned about protecting “self-esteem” that they can’t teach their children how to behave properly.When my former roommate was student teaching, she was not allowed to correct her HIGH SCHOOL students’ papers with red pen because it was “too stressful” for the students.What is that?
>Oh, the old “this generation is ruined by their horrible parents” debate. I think this crops up every 10 years. I don’t think Lindsey was going there, she was just saying that society in general frowns on being tough on kids. There are brats, there are bad parents certainly. For the most part though people do the best they can under stressful circumstances. Working parents feel guilt, etc. We can only hope this generation comes out OK. Everyone is trying to learn, even parents. It’s all cyclical though. By the next generation it will be commonplace to name a wooden spoon, paint a mean face on it and hang it over your kids bed.
>I have a little boy and his friends are all little boys, so I’m keenly aware of the “boys will be boys” concept. But if that’s our philosophy about disciplining, boys will be pains in the ass. I don’t spank, either (because of the wooden spoon), but time outs are effective with my son. I know that’s not true for a lot of kids.
>Hey Lindsay—I still can’t post over at City Paper. Not a big deal, of course, just letting you know…I don’t defend letting kids get away with bad behavior, or using daycare as an excuse. I’m just talking about challenges that I faced as a new and inexperienced mom. I had to learn how to teach my children to behave; it didn’t come naturally. And spanking, as I said before, was not effective as a discipline tool for me. If it had been I would have kept doing it.I think that most of you have a lot more parenting tools at your disposal than swatting, spoons and spankings, and that your alternative tools are the most effective. What Lindsay really objects to, I’m guessing, is kids that rule the roost. In our house, the adults are in charge. But we don’t use hitting to make that point.
>When I was still teaching, I took my students on an overnight trip on an historic war ship. The kids were required to bring a parent. The behavior on the trip was so deplorable that I assigned the students to write an apology in their thank you notes for their disregard for rules. After doing so, the parents banded together, told the kids not to write, and called the principal to discuss me! At the meeting, I mentioned how one parent brought his ipod, another told her son to “not get caught” sneaking below deck, and how several parents skipped out to go drink. The meeting changed tone a bit, but still, they were excused from writing. I left the teaching business mid-year after that. I want to see these kids with their employers in the future, when they can’t take responsibility, can listen to criticism, and can’t make it through a task without parental intervention. Then what?
>The same people that give you the stare down when you speak sternly to your kid in public are the same type of people that give you the stare down when you have a crying baby and are just trying to make it through the grocery store. Those people are the previous generation’s kids of which you speak you. They are offended when you correct your older kids and they seem to want you to beat the hell out of a baby for crying. You can’t win with those type of people, so don’t even try.I once had some “freinds” stop by my house with their 2 yo. He ripped an electrical plug cover off (the entire plastic piece) the wall and of course my reaction was to jump up and move him from the exposed wires. The mother had a fit thinking I was correcting him and that I was mad about a broken plastic cover. I explained I just didn’t want him to get shocked and that the cover only cost about $1 to replace. She says something about loving her child and how she lets him explore. That’s fine…but her kid was not going to explore electricity under my home owners. She left and has never come back. Good riddance.
>I am familiar with Mr. Wooden Spoon and Ms. Hair Brush. Although we rarely "shook hands" my sister and I always knew they were just in the other room. I am not a fan of spanking, but I guess that's bcz I've never had to go that far. The kids in my life (4 nephews, 1 niece) know I mean business when I tell them something. I get to be the fun aunt who's been known to let them eat ice cream for breakfast on occasion, or eat cereal for dinner if that’s what they want. But if/when I say no to something or correct a behavior, they listen. Taking away privileges is huge for them (this is what worked best for me when I was growing up). They know that if they don’t mind, that there will not be any more ice cream for breakfast or cereal for dinner bcz they will not be allowed to spend fun weekends w/ Auntie. And they know their parents will hear about their bad behavior as well.Spanking didn’t work for one of my nephews. His parents found soap was the best thing. You could beat that child senseless & he didn’t care, but just the mention of getting his mouth washed out w/ soap and his behavior was instantly changed. I don’t agree with this method, but it does make me chuckle, as I have threatened him on occasion & it worked like a charm.
>Recently I had a conversation with my mother about her beliefs about discipline, as I am trying to figure out how I want to discipline my own young children. If one of us misbehaved out in public Mom took the offender on “a walk”. I was a pretty shy, good kid, and I remember my walks consisting of an explanation of why the behavior was bad. I usually felt bad about the misbehavior enough that no more discipline was warranted. I asked my Mom if her walks with my brothers were the same as mine. She explained that each child responded to a different type of discipline. And each situation was different. Sometimes it was an explanation, sometimes a lecture, rarely a spanking (usually only when it was a dangerous split second thing like running out into the road), and sometimes she just took the kid and let them run around and let off some steam. It depended on the kid and the misbehavior. I thought that was pretty wise.
>I’ve more “swatted” than spanked, and it is/was a good attention-getter. My problem now is trying to explain to my son that he is perceived as being rude, when he really doesn’t mean to be.He’s shy. He looks down and mumbles when people talk to him, and he absolutely cannot tolerate getting complimented for something, even when he truly deserves it.I completely understand this, because I was cripplingly shy as a child. I try to explain to him that people think he’s being rude, and teach him that it really doesn’t hurt to look at people and speak when he’s spoken to. But I know how hard it is for him, because I clearly remember how hard it was for me.
>There are more effective forms of discipline than spanking. We don’t spank our kids and I have friends who don’t spank, and our children do not act like Harry. In fact, my kids’ behavior is often complimented by family members, teachers, strangers, etc. They are polite and well-mannered. Spanking is not the answer, but consistent, fair, firm discipline is.I think too many people spank out of anger and it can inadvertently go too far, so I am against spanking and all forms of corporal punishment. If it’s not okay to hit adults, it’s not okay to hit kids, imo.
>YesYesYesANDYESI watch the heads of other mothers turn, their mouths drop, their eyes gawk, as I discipline my kids, punish them in public, talk to them sternly, expect them to apologize appropriately…as other mother is saying “It’s okay, really…”No, it’s not okay! My kid will say thank you. My kid will not ignore you. My kid will listen when you speak and ANSWER YOU WHEN HE IS ASKED A QUESTION.I am amazed, A-MAZED, when I get a blank stare and a silent reaction after asking the simplest questions of children. A-MAZED. I want to say: “I know you heard me because you are looking right at me, but why do you look dumbstruck, and why won’t you reply? A moment ago you were running through the house screaming your head off, and now you can’t find words to speak? Wait, why are you walking away, I’m talking to you…..”Okay, so maybe you struck a chord with me on this one. Can you say PET PEEVE? Major! Thanks for writing this; I often feel so alone out there – as I certainly do not envision my boys as delicate little flowers. And not just because they are boys, but because they are human and life is hard. Sometimes it’s just hard. We fall. We nosedive. We bleed. We get back up. We have to. And the sooner you find that you can do that yourself, the quicker the path to the strength and confidence it takes to get through it all.
>So I left a comment over at the paper but did not link my blog, but now you must come by, and while you are therecheck out this http://whateverloribehr.blogspot.com/2008/12/judge-this.html
>It’s interesting to see how many parents here aren’t opposed to a well deserved swat on the butt. I think that spanking has its place but not when done in anger and only with a bare hand. I had many wooden spoons broken over my behind, and I do think my parents got carried away, but it was effective. I did have a healthy fear of the consequences of my actions, not of my parents.On manners: I go crazy at the lack of basic manners. I do have to ask for patience with young kids who don’t make eye contact or why shy away from adults. I have one with terrible anxiety in some circumstances. At those times, he is physically incapable of answering. Given an opportunity he will answer when he’s had a chance to catch his breath but it makes me crazy when adults say, “oh, it’s ok” because it’s not and he does have to learn.
>I don’t have kids, but I adore most of my friends’ children. They are always welcome at my home, and if there are toddlers or infants just learning to walk who will be in my place, I will remove objects from common areas that are tempting to little ones. It baby-proofs my place for their safety and simultaneously ensures that my stuff won’t get damaged.I, too, am horrified by how rude kids are. Unfortunately it’s my fortysomething generation that is responsible for raising kids who are socially clueless – because of their reluctance to discipline.In my home, all bets are off. If I see a four-year-old toying with the glass top to my coffee table, I will ask the child directly and politely, using “please” to reinforce manners and giving them a reason why I don’t want them to mess with heavy glass, in front of their parents, to stop the behavior. If it doesn’t stop, I don’t give two more chances. I then ask, very firmly and directly, that a parent intervene. If the parent ignores my request, I will ask that they leave and not come back until the child has learned to respect someone else’s property. You wouldn’t smear lipstick on my walls, so why do you allow your children to do so in the name of playing, or “just being kids”? With disrespect like that, I don’t want your friendship.I’m not out of bounds for having rules. I understand that accidents sometimes happen, and I don’t get uptight about spilled milk, or barf on the rug, or a baby pulling the cat’s tail. But when parents ignore their children to the point where the kids trash someone’s place, their children then learn through lack of discipline that any kind of behavior is acceptable.There are laws for truancy that hold parents responsible via stiff fines for a child’s absence from school; there should be laws that hold parents financially responsible for not curtailing destructive behavior. The kids will later learn that their lack of manners will be held against them, especially when they want a promotion at their job or seek membership within a social club.
>Overall, I have more faith in GenX raising our kids than the Baby Boomers (aka the first generation not spanked, thank you very much Dr. Spock). Generally, I have seen parents at my daughter’s school “raising the kids right” and not putting up with BS. My son’s preschool is probably similar, with the exception of a couple of “progressives” with so-called perfect children.
>I know what you mean about people acting as if their children are delicate flowers. My SIL is like this and it drives me nuts. You cannot say a single word that might be construed as criticism about her children. When we were talking about how our boys (5 and 4) are so hard to keep focused on basic tasks like getting dressed, she realized her son was in the next room and might have heard us, so she loudly said “But Joey is such a good boy and he tries so hard all the time. He does a great job!” And I was just kind of dumbfounded. How is that helpful? How does it hurt for a child to hear that they need to work on certain tasks or improve in certain areas? No one was calling him names or saying anything bad. And none of her children show respect for adult conversations. She could be talking to someone and they walk right up to her and just start blah blah blahing and she stops what she’s doing to pay attention to them, even if all they have to say is “I like dinosaurs!” I grew up under circumstances that made it very clear that I was not the center of the universe and I try hard to give my own kids that same perspective. I don’t understand why you would chose the other route. it’s our job as parents to prepare kids to be functioning members of society, and these are important lessons along the way. Sorry for hijacking the comments. This is just something I feel really strongly about. Thanks for bringing it up!
>It is lazy parents, many of whom were raised by lazy parents themselves.You don’t need to spank to have well-disciplined, polite children, but you do have to work hard.
>Ready for a total shocker – by posting a link to your article on my facebook I’m ‘upset’ a childhood friend of my husband who is adamantly against spanking. Granted his wife is due any day with their FIRST child. Anyway just had to share 😉
>Halle-freakin-luja! Thanks for posting this. I was discussing discipline with another mother one day and we both noted that we weren’t against spanking but it doesn’t work on every child. We were both spanked and grew up to be productive, respectful members of society and loving parents. A mother we don’t know butted into our conversation to point out that, “A study showed that people in their 30’s who were spanked as children exhibit the same behaviors as kids who grew up in war zones.” She also said that the old Road Runner cartoons and Scooby Doo were much to violent for her children to ever watch. I just told her I planned to let my kid run with scissors too when he was old enough…The sad part about a lot of kids these days for me is the total lack of respect they have for themselves. Oh, and the parents who think their kids bad behavior is amusing and cute. Newsflash: it’s so NOT.
>when we started spanking, our little boy started hitting back. and hitting his friends. it was tough to explain to him why it was ok for us to hit him but he couldn’t hit us or hit his friends. The rule at our house now is “hands are not for hitting.” Spanking was not effective for us. Denying him tv or treats has worked better. Rewards for good behavior too.
>I also wanted to add that I don’t see that many badly behaved kids. I mean there’s always one or two in every class, but all my kids’ friends seem pretty polite and well-mannered. I really don’t see this rash of unruly, out-of-control children that apparently others are seeing. And I’ve been in a MOM’s Club so I’ve been around lots of kids and lots of moms. I did not notice the kids who were spanked acting any better than kids who were not. I find that being consistent, rewarding positive behavior and withholding privileges and using time-outs works just fine for my kids. Spanking just isn’t necessary in our house.
>Spanking has always been my absolute last resort. My oldest is 9, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve had to spank her; and have fingers left over. She knows that if I get to the point where I even threaten to spank her, then she’s way closer to that line than she wants to be.
>RIGHT ON!!! I’m not a big spanking fan but but believe in boundaries and discipline that are clear and consistent. When that kid stuck his tongue out at you I’d have slammed his MOTHER for walking away. Terrific post!
>Spanking is not the only way to teach manners. I know *dozens* of teens, children, and even toddlers who behave very well and have never been hit. Hitting kids teaches kids to hit, to be scared of parents, and to avoid being wrong instead of trying to be right. Respecting kids and giving them solid boundaries teaches respect and boundaries. It takes a lot of time and patience to teach good behavior. It doesn’t take much time or effort to let the tv babysit kids, to hit them, or to punish rather than rewarding good behavior.And for the record, being proud of a pregnant 15 year who plans to hit her child is a sign that we are teaching exactly the wrong things. 15? Pregnant? But yay for spanking? Please. Teach that girl some self esteem by letting her choose to follow rules because nice kids are rewarded, and maybe she won’t be pregnant at 15.
>Wait. Who’s proud of the spanking 15-year-old? Did I miss something?Also, I think it’s interesting that while we’ve become a non-spanking culture, our kids are seeing more hitting/shoving/slapping than ever on MTV and VH1, the two channels most watched by teenagers. This is not to say I think spanking is a great idea and every parents should do it. But I also think the vast majority of children who were spanked don’t end up emotionally scarred for life, like the experts would have us believe.
>I just wrote a blog post on this myself, “Hitler Ain’t Got Nothin’ On Me…”Pretty clear what my views on discipline are in that post.
>Are we really a “non-spanking culture?” I don’t think so. I see and hear about plenty of people spanking their kids these days. Heck, just look at your comments — the majority are pro-spanking. In fact, I feel like we’re the weirdos because we don’t spank.
>Sarah@momalom, that’s my pet peeve too. Many parents of my son’s peers (age 4) don’t require their kids to make any response at all to me, much less one that shows respect or manners. In fact, I’m lucky if the child is still standing there 5 seconds later, and I’m talking about kids my son has played with for 3 years. And Jill, there must be some new manual that teaches that if kids just say, “Excuse me,” they can “politely” interrupt anyone, anytime, in any conversation, to say whatever they like. It’s like a new “magic word,” I think. A free pass. It’s pretty weird — wonder if anyone else has noticed.
>It’s completely backfiring on the liberal people that wanted their children to think for themselves and be individuals, etc. You can’t expect a five year old to know right from wrong unless you teach them. A parent is just that, a parent. They are not a friend of the child, they are a teacher and a nurturer. There to teach right and wrong, manners, respect, integrity, etc. Unfortunately there’s a couple of generations raised by their daycare providers, public school, and parents that don’t feel it’s necessary for actual consequences. It’s a very sad state of affairs and this is who is going to be the future
>I wrote earlier about being a “wooden spoon survivor” and giving out an occasional spanking. I am NOT scarred for life by being spanked. I am close to my parents, we actually joke about the spoon! I don’t resent them at all, just the opposite. Of all things in my life, I am most proud of the fact that I treat everyone well and use manners. I have them to thank. Best way to do that is to lead by example. I am big on please, thank you for everyone. I was blown away recently when I heard my 4YO order his donuts when we stopped for coffee. He said please, thank you and added in a have a good day : ) I realized that he and I had NEVER had that conversation. He just picked it up from me, my busband and daughter. And when no other means of discipline work, spanking can be effective. I have done it, I am not ashamed. I have also sat down with my kids after and told them how much they were loved and WHY they were spanked. Some behavior just cannot be tolerated. Safety issues especially. How many time outs are you going to give to a kid that compromises his/her own safety? If it doesn’t work, they could be injured. At some point, a good swat on the behind is better than a severe injury.
>Amen! I am so glad you were “bold” enough to write about this subject. I’ve always said, “I don’t parent to be popular.” I am truly disgusted by the behavior of some of my kids’ classmates and peers, but even more disgusted by their parents who model the behavior for them.
>I’m not sure if it is spanking that is the key or if it is just not tolerating bad behavior in general…realizing that loving your kid is showing him/her the right way… helping them become good, kind, generous, thoughtful people… ensuring safety at all times. In my mind, through discipline, that is a gift parents give their children! Far better than the gift of overindulgence or under attentiveness.
>I don't know what the answer is. Clearly the moms in your article needed to do something/anything! But for everyone to say that parents today don't do any discipline is far reaching. I have a 4yo & 2yo and life is hell. We do timeouts, taking toys away, ignoring/ "picking our battles", and even tried spanking. I am worn out. WORN OUT. I have a master's in childhood develoment so I should know how to raise kids, right? Seriously, I think everyone should stop encouraging their friends and family to have kids and saying how great it is. Be honest and say how truely hard and unforgiving and unrewarding it is. We can't wait for them to be old enough for military schooling.
>I think Naptimewriting has been napping while reading. The post she was refering to about a pregnant 15 year-old didn’t say that. The person writing the comment was pregnant and mentioned what the 15 year old had said TO HER.
>I am confused, you think spanking is o.k for children that are to young to discern right from wrong. If they are to young to understand should they be punished? Maybe you should redirect them and take the time to teach them whats right and wrong.
>”Self Esteem” is overated and the kids today have way too much of it. The bible says if you spare the rod then you hate your children (paraphrased). Self Esteem has replaced morals and ethics and materialism reigns supreme. I was watching the Disney channel with my wife and daughter and one of the girls had to say “damn” when she didn’t get her way. This is childrens programming? This generation of kids isn’t thinking of growing up and raising a family. It’s all about “hooking up and blinging.”
>We don’t spank but I can imagine situations where I would. If, for example, our daughter had deliberately dropped a toy on her 84-year-old great-gradmother’s head from the loft above my mom’s double-height living room, she would have been spanked and not just “had a verbal strip torn off her.” Hypothetically speaking of course. This certainly didn’t happen when another child came to visit my mom. Nope.Fortunately, we have yet to get to the point in my daughter’s behaviour where we’d have to resort to spanking. We’re pretty strict about proper behaviour (time-outs for her and sometimes denial of treats/toys (and once her time-out had to be moved out to the car when we were at someone else’s house)) and when we’re somewhere with a bunch of other kids present she’s usually the best-behaved one. Her brother is still a baby so it’ll be interesting to see what his personality requires to keep him polite and respectful.
>I agree that far too many children are not made to understand how to behave. I don’t necessarily agree with spanking as the solution, at least except for in the most serious things, where you need to shock your child badly. I do believe in consequences, though, and follow-through. I will never make a threat I won’t carry out, and my child knows that. But I see plenty of kids completely ignore their mom’s instructions and the moms either let it go or back down to expecting something less. What?! Just who is in charge around here? It damn well shouldn’t be the kids.
>I’ve never spanked my children, and now that they are 7 and 10, I never will. I am very proud of that. Not because I think that spanking is emotionally scarring, but because I disagree strongly with the message that it sends.
>Why should a child come to EXPECT a REWARD for good behavior? Good behavior should be it's own reward, if you behave well then you avoid so many unpleasent things i.e. punishment of any sort.I mean, we don't get rewarded for following the law do we? No, we get not punished. Treats and rewards have their place, but I don't believe it should be for meeting expectations. Rewarding kids for behaving the way they should, breeds entitlement, and the belief that they deserve something for not breaking mommy's china. Sounds kinda "off" to me.
Although I agree with this statement about kids being unruly and actually expect politeness from my child, I just want to point out it is just not kids today. “The children of today now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect for their elders. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers” (Socrates, 499BC). As parents many have been slacking. Why are parents not checking their childs facebook, allowing the cussing and disrespect on that. I know as a mother of a 15 year old child I seem very strict when it comes to discipline. I expect her to listen, I expect her to be polite, and I expect respect. However, I also expect her to make her own choices, right and wrong, and to grow from them. I do not tolerate disrespect from her friends and recently created her a new facebook page because of it. I did not give her a choice. Many of the kids were like “so what are you going to pick her friends” and I said “Heck yes I am! I am her mother!” So although I think parents really need to step up (I was a single teenage mother by the way) and take responsibility… I just wanted to point out that all adults have always thought that teenagers were disrespectful! Go you for posting this!!
Jen